Cross Word

The Secret Truth About Ukraine Nobody is Telling You

• Michele McAloon

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Michele McAloon speaks with Olena Tregub, a Ukrainian civil society leader and anti-corruption advocate, about the realities of war in Ukraine and why American support remains crucial despite political uncertainty.

• Olena describes the terrifying routine of air raid alerts and Russia's intensified attacks on Ukrainian civilians
• Ukrainian defense relies heavily on US-supplied Patriot systems which cannot be replaced by European support
• Most corruption stories about Ukraine are Russian propaganda - approximately 60% are completely fake
• Ukraine has implemented significant anti-corruption reforms even during wartime, including new procurement agencies and oversight mechanisms
• Russia is fighting with support from China, North Korea, and Iran - forming an axis against Ukraine
• Ukraine possesses the most powerful army in Europe with valuable combat experience and technological innovations
• Ukraine gave up the world's third-largest nuclear arsenal after US pressure and security assurances

If you want to learn more about the host, visit bookclues.com. 

Michele McAloon:

You're listening to Crossword, where cultural clues lead to the truth of the word, and my name is Michele McAloon, and today I've got a little bit of a different interview. I am going to interview a woman named Olena Tregub, and Olena Tregub is with an organization called NAKO.( https://nako. org. ua/) It is an anti-corruption organization in Ukraine, , and I thought it would be important to talk to her, because you hear a lot that's just not true about Ukraine, about how they've abused what we have given them, whether it's been weapons or money and folks. I just have to tell you it's not true To speak to the Ukrainians now. They are in a desperate situation. There's no question about it. They have been overrun by a superior force. The US has done a magnificent job of supplying them with weapons to defend themselves, and this is definitely being called into question once again. So please listen to this recording, read a little bit about Ukraine.

Michele McAloon:

Ukrainians are not Russians. Russians are a whole different kettle of fish, so to speak. Ukrainians are European people. They come with a very complex history, a complex background. They are comprised of many different nationalities, but in the end of the day, they are absolutely European and Western people with Western values, valuing democracy, freedom and independence, and Ukraine needs the United States and the United States needs Ukraine. A safe Europe is a safe United States, and if you don't think that's correct, then I would really encourage you to review your 20th century history. I know I'll get a lot of pushback from this interview. I'll get a lot of emails. That's okay. I'd love to hear your opinion and if you want to know more about me, I'm at bookcluescom. Thank you, god bless.

Michele McAloon:

Welcome listeners, we have a real treat today. We are talking to a beautiful young woman. Her name is Elena Tregu. She is currently sitting at Kyiv, ukraine. She is a Ukrainian. She's a very important person in Ukraine. She is a Ukrainian civil society leader, an anti-corruption advocate, an expert on defense reform, international relations and sanctions policy. She is known for promoting her good work in good governance, transparency, accountability in Ukraine's defense and security sectors, and she currently is the executive director and secretary general of NACO, which is the Executive Director and Secretary General of NACO, which is the Anti-Corruption Commission, to Ukrainian Civil Society. Welcome, olena, how are you?

Olena Tregub:

Hi and thank you very much for having me, Michele. I'm doing great. Keep fighting, Keep fighting.

Michele McAloon:

Tell us about what happened this past weekend in Kyiv. We've gotten reports in the West here that it was just a terrible bombing throughout the weekend. How did you fare during that? How did your family do?

Olena Tregub:

It's very stressful, obviously because you know, we observe in the last two months their attacks on Ukrainian civilians intensified and there is analysis when we look at how many drones and missiles were launched by Russia since Trump came to office. Essentially, in a nutshell, they doubled and we have now more advanced Russian weapon against us and it's becoming harder for Ukraine to defend our civilians. So a lot of villages in the Kiev region were affected, people died and it's happening now, you know, over and over in the recent months and we think that it will become even worse in June. So of course, those people who have kids, older parents and so on, they're all very stressed about that, to have some increased safety measures, to have a better bomb shelter and see what you can do to protect your family, your team in this situation.

Michele McAloon:

Olena, tell your average person of what it's like to go through a bombing. I mean, most people in the West today thank goodness to include Europe and America have not had that experience. When do you get? Is there an air raid alert and you go somewhere? Or what happens if you don't mind telling us that?

Olena Tregub:

Oh, yeah, sure, that's our routine now for the last three years. Unfortunately, we have on our phones an app and this app tells us when the air raid starts. In addition to this app, we have their street alarm when there is this very unpleasant, unsettling sound of the air raid. It's like it sounds basically the same as when London was bombed during World War II this kind of sound. And then you decide whether you want to go hide in the bomb shelter, in the nearest bomb shelter, or you decide to stay in your house and just stay in your corridor or your bathroom where there are no windows. And this decision is based on information that you receive from multiple social media channels and the app.

Olena Tregub:

It says whether, when it is dangerous, the dangerous when you need to go to bomb shelter is a so-called combined strike, which means that Russia has launched cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and drones altogether and many of them, and in this situation, it's better to go hide. If Russia just launched drones, nobody goes hiding because it's okay. So that's basically what happens. And then after every air raid, you think, ok, thank God, I'm alive, my house is OK, my family OK and keep going. But some other people turned out to be unlucky and they are dead, and what if you are dead next time? So it's like a roulette, in a way, like where Russia is just like shooting people and you never know who is going to die during this particular air raid. So that's the reality of Ukrainians.

Michele McAloon:

Wow, that's something else, let me ask you. You expect this to increase in June. Why is that?

Olena Tregub:

that Well, I think because it's very clear now for us that this imitation of negotiation, it's basically not happening.

Olena Tregub:

This, you know, trump call for peace is basically something which is completely hollow and Putin doesn't have any intention to stop the war and have peace. And essentially Putin wants to take more of Ukraine and to terrorize Ukraine to the maximum. Because he sees an opportunity now, because he knows Trump will not do anything bad to him and he can try to grab as much of Ukraine as he can in the nearest month and maybe then in say, in autumn, in fall, he will be ready for negotiation, or maybe even not, maybe he will keep going and basically he will be very much. Also, you know, and basically he will be for that time. And already he's, like I said, using this situation of uncertainty when basically US said that they want us to stop fighting, to stop defending our country, but they didn't really put any leverage, any pressure on Putin to stop attacking our country. So that's essentially what's happening and of course, because of that, it's going to be very tough in the coming weeks.

Michele McAloon:

Olena, as a defense expert, can I ask you a countries make up for the difference of the weapons that could potentially not be supplied to Ukraine?

Olena Tregub:

Not fully. Europe definitely made decision to keep supporting Ukraine, and it's important for Europe to keep financing our own defense production, because Ukraine now makes 40% of weapons that we're using now in this war. We make it by ourselves, yes, and we use our own money to make those weapons, and we use some European money that we get through so-called Danish model European peace facility. So this is good and this should be increased. I hope At least this is what Europe is declaring.

Olena Tregub:

However, there are many weapons which cannot be replaced, related to air defense. We rely very much on Patriot systems that are protecting our cities from ballistic missiles, and there is nothing that can replace Patriots, and we need missiles for Patriots, and if we don't get it from US, europe cannot do anything about it. So we need to figure out how we get this from US, whether Europe will buy it for us from US or, you know, us will sell it to Ukraine because, as Trump said, he will not be helping us for free anymore. But you know, this is something very critical because without these defensive capabilities, our infrastructure, our civilians can be very, very much vulnerable, and that's why we need to continue our conversation with the United States so that these areas which are irreplaceable, they should be still taken care of.

Michele McAloon:

Right, and a Patriot, just for my audience, a Patriot missile is basically an air defense missile, so what a Patriot does is it allows it. It's an interceptor missile for surface-to-air missiles, and these are the missiles that Russia is now firing into Kiev and to other parts of Ukraine. So that's why these Patriots are so important, and I know in the West, one of the problems is, too is that there's fewer and fewer Patriots. They're not being manufactured at the pace that they should be manufactured at, and this is something that I agree with you that only the United States not only the United States, but we are uniquely in the position of being able to possibly produce more of these and provide more of these. These are critical weapons systems that Ukraine absolutely needs. Elena, tell us a little bit about your work in your organization I believe it's called NACO that you are the Secretary General for. Tell us what you do, yeah sure.

Olena Tregub:

We established this organization in 2017. It used to be part of Transparency International anti-corruption global movement, where we focused only on defense and security issues. So the idea of NACO is to reduce a corruption risk in the areas which are critical for Ukrainian national security. And I entered this area together with my colleagues, my team, completely from a different sector I worked in the Ministry of Economy and Finance but I understood that there is a gap in Ukraine when it comes to defense and security, where civil society can step in to help reform this sector, to make our country more capable to defend itself.

Olena Tregub:

Because already remember, the war started in 2014, and I was very worried that Ukrainian army, ukrainian Ministry of Defense, Ukrainian defense industry is not reforming itself and preparing itself enough to be able to repel Russian aggression, to be able to deter Russia. And we did not deter Russia. The West didn't deter Russia, ukraine didn't deter Russia. Russia did start full-scale invasion in 2022. But my organization, we have been preparing for this. You know, we've been writing laws like changing their system of defense to attract foreign investment, to make better weapons, to have less corruption, to have, you know, better investment climate for this area, because we understood that this is all very crucial for us to defend our nation, and there is nothing more important than that, because if you don't have security, if your country is invaded, then what's the point of any other reform? And that's why our group of people not from military sector came into this sector with this mission to help protect the country.

Michele McAloon:

Alina, help me explain something. So corruption I mean corruption is endemic in any society where you have money, or money that is not transparent or money that is not accounted for. Was this a unique problem to Ukrainian defense force, or is this something that has been evolving? Tell us a little bit about, I guess, the history of corruption in Ukraine and why this had to be tackled. And again, I'm not just pointing out Ukraine Anytime that there's money, there is a potential for corruption, and transparency is always needed.

Olena Tregub:

That's right. I consider corruption the legacy of the Soviet system, because in the Soviet system there were no mechanisms, for example, for media oversight, civil society oversight, parliamentary oversight, all these democratic systems, checks and balances. They did not really exist in the USSR.

Michele McAloon:

Let me ask you a question. A lot of times in the US we hear that you know well, not all the money is made. You know the Ukrainians are selling weapons or the Ukrainian politicians are taking US money. Can you disabuse us of that and tell us that that I know for a fact and from dealing with the military here in Wiesbaden that that in fact is not happening. You on the ground, can you say that you have not seen that?

Olena Tregub:

Yeah, absolutely this of corruption.

Olena Tregub:

It is used very often by Russian propaganda in order to undermine support for Ukraine outside Ukraine and also undermine the morale of Ukrainian society and the military inside Ukraine.

Olena Tregub:

And therefore, when there were actually projects run by several organizations to basically verify all social media stories about corruption in Ukraine, not just in the military, but overall and it turns out that 60 or more percent of those stories were fake. There are true stories about corruption. There are true stories about corruption. However, these stories, they are actually, in my opinion, positive because these are stories of investigation and of prosecution of like corruption against corruption. When we found civil society journalists, when we found that something was wrong and people were dismissed, people were arrested, and it was never around the topic of weapons, because in terms of weapons, especially the weapons that we receive from partners, it's impossible to do corruption there because there are so many checks there and, plus, it is such a critical area where you know Ukrainians are fighting for their life and all the military they need these weapons because they are on the front line and there is scarcity, so can you imagine like somebody would start selling?

Michele McAloon:

you know, himars or Patriot Right, yeah, I mean yeah, you know HIMARS. Or PATHU, right, yeah, I mean yeah, it's crazy.

Olena Tregub:

It's like. First of all, there are systems, how US, for example, is tracking its own weapon. There are people on the ground from the Department of Defense who are looking at where these weapons are, how they are used. There are, you know, so many checks of this, so and this never actually happened. But what happened is we had situations when, for example, the codes for the military were procured not in the right way and we paid our own money from our own Ukrainian treasury to buy those coats, and that was not good and we investigated this and there was a criminal case and people were punished. Or we had a case when the eggs for the army were procured at very high price.

Olena Tregub:

This was a huge case in Ukraine. People were very angry in society. Because of that, zelensky had to dismiss our Minister of Defense Reznikov. We had to create anti-corruption council of the Ministry of Defense, because now we have a body where there are people, trusted people from society with very good, clean reputation, who are sitting and overseeing the procurement process for non-lethal items, because this is huge, you know, to feed the army, to dress the army. This is a huge budget item and we are now overseeing it. So it didn't happen again and we now decreased the price of procurement for those items.

Olena Tregub:

We created two new procurement agencies, which was also demanded by society. Those agencies they operate separately from the ministry so that there are less political influences, some corrupt influences. They are professional people one agency buying food and non-lethal and another agency buying weapon. And we're creating supervisory boards for those agencies, like regular audits, all these mechanisms, you know, of due diligence and compliance. So all that reform is happening now, during full-scale war, and this is because Ukraine is a democracy. All these corruption stories, they come to public domain. We discuss them. We have journalists who are free to investigate any problem. Nobody gets in trouble for that, like it is in authoritarian countries or Russia. And we keep doing that. We keep fighting corruption. That's why I think the fact that we have our democracy is alive. We keep fighting. It's a good thing, because I wouldn't say that Ukraine is a corrupt country. I would say Ukraine is a country that is fighting corruption much to say that to.

Michele McAloon:

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, one of the problems is you do you see just some crazy online stories about Ukraine and, unfortunately, some of our politicians have used some of those stories to justify not doing anything or not supporting Ukraine. One of the worst things that I think has happened in the United States in regards to Ukraine is that it's never been explained really from the top down to the American people why Ukraine is important and why US has an invested interest in keeping Ukraine free and democratic, and that really is. It's a story that is not well told in the United States. If you, elena, if you could talk to the average American, what would? Why is Ukraine important? Why is it important to Europe? Why is it important to the West? Do you think about these questions?

Olena Tregub:

Of course, I think about these questions every day and I absolutely have no doubt why Ukraine is important. It's very clear that Russia is not happy about collapse of USSR and Russia wants to go back in history and restore some form of modern empire USSR, whatever they call it. And without Ukraine, as Spiny Brzezinski said, there will be no like Russia will never be an empire. But with Ukraine, russia is an empire and this is what Russia wants. Russia is an empire and this is what Russia wants. Russia wants to control Ukraine, belarus, eventually, moldova, take back the Baltic states, the former USSR in their Caucasus and Central Asia, because Russia has this problem with revanchism, with revisiting history. They don't want to let Ukraine exist as a separate country and they are very angry that Ukraine did not support their authoritarian model. That Russia has and Ukraine is very democratic. We regularly change our presidents. We love freedom. We want our people to have choices, to have their rights respected, and this is against the Russian model, because Russia is a country that oppresses human beings, is a country that oppresses human beings and you know where the state, mafia, state led by Putin, decides the fate of everybody, and Ukrainians made choice. We don't want to be part of that system. So for United States right now, if United States betray Ukraine and show that for them it doesn't really matter that Ukraine is a free country and people in Ukraine, they fight for freedom, for them it doesn't really matter that Ukraine is a free country and people in Ukraine, they fight for freedom, for democracy, to protect the values that we share with Americans, with Europeans If US will show that we don't care about these things and we, like you know, jd Vance said I don't care what happens to Ukraine one way or the other.

Olena Tregub:

You know, if that happens, it will undermine American leadership in the world, because America needs right now to build alliances with democratic, like-minded countries who have the same values as America and who will trust America, who will help America build supply chain for the modern economy with artificial intelligence and all these new microchips that we are in the world because they see America as a leader of free world. When America will become more isolated and will be less capable to disperse the technology, their new products that America is making now. But also it will create conditions when other powers that are authoritarian rise and they will use their military power in their regions just because they think America is not there anymore. And that's why Asia, which is a critical area for US interests, will become very vulnerable, with Taiwan, south Korea, japan, who will be in a very insecure position.

Olena Tregub:

And that's why, you know, overall, this whole situation around war with Ukraine can lead not only to some damage for average American in their like level of wealth, income, welfare, but even their security, because if the whole transatlantic security alliance collapses, there will become a very insecure place. That will, you know, affect America, because America is part of this architecture and even though this architecture many people, of course, would say it doesn't exist, it has collapsed already but people, countries, they are still watching how America will behave itself towards Ukraine. And now Trump is playing this game, dancing this dance, when he pretends as if he doesn't understand why Putin doesn't want to stop the war. But if he says eventually, ok, putin doesn't want to stop, I will let him invade Ukraine and I will not intervene and I will exit from negotiation, that will be ultimate betrayal which will be, in my opinion, against the interest of Americans.

Michele McAloon:

Absolutely and to my listening audience, ukraine is not Russia. It is a very different country. It is a European country with European sensibilities. Russia's Russia, but Ukraine is not Russia. And you know, elena, most people that I've talked to in the United States and I said this before but when it's explained to them, of course they want to stand up for a country that is a democratic country, that is a free country, that is an independent country. That is in our American DNA and unfortunately, it's gotten lost.

Michele McAloon:

I believe in a lot of Russian propaganda and the leadership's lack of explaining the importance of Ukraine and I'm not just picking on one administration, I'm picking on both of them. At this point, to Americans who are listening, I really hope you think about this. Do a little more reading on Ukraine and actually contact your congressman or your senator and tell them that you're interested on Ukraine. And actually contact your congressman or your senator and tell them that you're interested in Ukraine and supporting Ukraine, because a free Ukraine and a Ukraine that we support says something about our own country and what our values and what we're willing to support. And one of the things I keep reading about, Elena, is just the technology innovations that are going on in Ukraine and I think one day that could be a very valuable partnership with the United States.

Olena Tregub:

Oh, absolutely Ukraine. Even despite the recent, you know, position of the new administration, ukraine still feels very, you know, close with the United States because of their common values. But it's important, of course, to make sure for the future that Ukraine remains the partner, that anti-American moods in Ukraine will not grow further, because, well, yeah, they are growing. Because I just want also to add to our previous topic is that, you know, when Soviet Union collapsed, america was there and Ukraine was the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and it was pressure of the US administration on Ukraine and on Kazakhstan, belarus, to give away our nuclear weapon in exchange for some security assurances. And now, of course, because of that, ukrainians they feel very strongly about this possibility of betrayal because it's, you know, america. You pressured us to disarm ourselves because you said that nothing would happen to us. Now Russia came to kill us and you say it's not your business, but why you were there to begin with to disarm us? Then why didn't let us build our own nuclear capacity? And all Ukrainians do. Now they all regret giving up this nuclear weapon because if we had nuclear weapon, we would never be invaded the way we are right now. That would deter the aggressive country like Russia.

Olena Tregub:

So it's important that Ukraine remains partners, and Ukraine is a very powerful army. Now the most powerful army in Europe is Ukrainian army. We have combat proven, not only our army, but also our technology. We developed within this last three years incredible, huge number of new defense companies. There are around 800 of them right now. There are new inventions coming every few weeks when it comes to drone warfare, when it comes to electronic warfare, like how to stop the drone, and this is all highly, highly valuable knowledge and experience and technology of a country who knows how to fight the modern war.

Olena Tregub:

There is no other such country in the world except Russia. So who, like if US, wants to partner with a country who has this valuable knowledge? That country should be, I guess, ukraine, because Russia will never partner with US, because Russia has seen US, because Russia has seen US as an enemy for centuries, and Russia even you know, not hiding it. Even Trump claims that he will be Putin's friend, but Putin is having parade with a Chinese leader, and this is because they are more aligned in terms of their views on the world, and so this is why Ukraine is extremely valuable For European security. Ukraine is not a problem. Ukraine is a solution because with Ukrainian industrial base, with Ukrainian army, the whole continent can be protected. And also, ukraine can share with American counterparts our technology and we actually, you know, have a lot of American companies coming to Kyiv asking us about our technology, about how we did this, how we did that. But in order to have this partnership, to build this trust, ukrainians should trust Americans and this support should be unwavering.

Michele McAloon:

Right and you know what? You just had a great line there that Ukraine is not. It's not a problem, it's a solution. And Europe I mean, despite all the nonsense that's going on right now Europe is the United States' number one trading partner. So we have a vested interest in a strong Ukraine, a strong Europe. And you know, administrations don't last forever. New administrations come and we will continue to have a heartfelt relationship with Europe and, hopefully, ukraine. Elena, I can't thank you enough for taking the time out of a very busy schedule, which I'm sure is anybody working in the defense sector of Ukraine. It was very kind of you to give us this time. Do you have any last thing you would like to say?

Olena Tregub:

Well, thank you, michelle, for your work, for explaining Ukraine to your audience, to your community. I think that we will see in very near future how important this war is for every American and they will see how important you know it is to stay committed to your values, to your partners, not just in terms of Ukraine, but other countries in the world, and I know many Americans. They already feel this way. But it's important to explain, of course, to those who are not very much into the political domain, like why they should care about a country which is across the ocean, far away, why this country is strategic. It is because it's not just a regional conflict, it's not just like some war for territory, it's not. This is strategic war that has direct effect on the history of United States. Oh, absolutely yeah, and this is thank you for explaining this why this is different than any other conflict now in the world.

Michele McAloon:

Absolutely it is. I'm convinced it's a war of strategic importance and if we don't do well here it's going to. If the US does not support Ukraine, if the US does not help Ukraine win, that it sends horrible message to our enemies in China, in North Korea, in Iran, and so we really we're tied together. We just are, and whether we want to acknowledge that or not, this is a key moment right now.

Olena Tregub:

I want to add this point, a very important matter that Russia is not fighting against Ukraine alone. Russia is fighting now with China, with North Korea and with Iran. Their military, their weapon, is present in this war. They are fighting together, side by side. So this is already. It shows how much this axis of evil is united against Ukraine. They all look at America. They all, all these countries, look what is America going to do? No-transcript.

Michele McAloon:

Elena, we pray for you, we pray for Ukraine, slava Ukraine, and hopefully you'll be willing to talk to us again soon about developments and things that are happening in Ukraine. You have a ready audience with us.

Olena Tregub:

Yes, Thank you, Heroim Slava, and God bless America and thank you for inviting me. Thank you.